"LJ909" (lj909)
10/23/2017 at 13:08 • Filed to: None
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"LJ909" (lj909)
10/23/2017 at 13:08 • Filed to: None | 1
| 44 |
Source: Dodge.com
If you ask this, you have to call into question if the Viper should have gotten a high performance variation of the Hemi from the get go. As it stands now, with the Americas brutal supercar on the way out YET AGAIN, both the Hellcat and Demon models out power the Viper with its 645 horse V10. At best with the power it has it can run with the Z06 and ZR1 Corvettes.
Its always bugged me that with the slow sales this gen of the Viper has had, that Dodge never thought to put a Hemi in the thing. That could brought a lower price point and allowed it to play in the 50-60 grand range with a base, say 475 horse Hemi or one of the 6.1 or 6.4 variants. Why did they think that giving a huge engine to older cars would make more sense than putting it in their hand built purpose built supercar? Could it be packaging or an engineering issue? Could be, but doubtful considering how large the engine bay is for the V10 and it 8.1 liters. A Demon engine in the Viper was a missed opportunity. A Hemi in the Viper period is an even bigger missed opportunity
What do you guys think though? Should the Viper have gotten the Demon engine or at the very least a Hemi engine to give it a lower price point and (possible) better sales?
TheHondaBro
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:12 |
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Dodge should work on an actual fucking decent midsize sedan before they put more power in poorly-selling muscle car.
Sweet Trav
> TheHondaBro
10/23/2017 at 13:13 |
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Why build a mid-sized sedan? They don’t sell.
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LJ909
> TheHondaBro
10/23/2017 at 13:14 |
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Yea right. FCA has all but given up on that arena. All their eggs are in the performance, Jeep and Ram baskets right now. They are running the company as if gas is going to stay cheap forever. They pussied out and threw in the towel way too quick after the 200/Dart failed.
awmaster10
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:19 |
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I think the sole reason is so that it could be a viper, which its good at, and not a mopar vette. A v8 viper would have to compete with the usually oustanding corvettes, maybe even the z06 and grandsport since I dont think they could drop THAT much off the price.
That being said, they could get the same output with a hemi as they do with the v10 and it would sound a LOT better.
In terms of the viper not being able to keep up with the demon, I dont think any viper driver really cares since life isnt a quarter mile drag race and whereas the viper owner will get stares, the challenger owner will look like any old tool.
BeaterGT
> Sweet Trav
10/23/2017 at 13:19 |
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Exactly, it needs to be some kind of oblong Grand Cherokee/Fiat 500 mashup.
PotbellyJoe and 42 others
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:20 |
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Chrysler dropped the ball on this one. They had the Firepower concept, making it production friendly from the above concept would not have been overly difficult and with it being powered by the 6.1L Hemi to start, it would have been easy to keep it as the showcase for the potential of their powerplants.
Not to besmirch the Challenger, but it’s not a long-slung, lightweight sportscar, it’s a sledgehammer and it sells well to the people looking for one.
The Viper painted itself into a corner with a unique to itself engine and chassis. The Firepower would have been more scale-able, more economical and more future-proof as it could shift to a TTpentastar if need be, or run the demon-Hemi. The formula would be putting the best motor Mopar had into this light[er] weight RWD package and going for it.
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TheHondaBro
> Sweet Trav
10/23/2017 at 13:20 |
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They might if FCA didn’t fail where everyone else has been succeeding for 50 years.
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PotbellyJoe and 42 others
> TheHondaBro
10/23/2017 at 13:22 |
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Dodge should work on an actual fucking decent midsize sedan crossover before they put more power in poorly-selling muscle car.
Discerning
> Sweet Trav
10/23/2017 at 13:22 |
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Midsized sedans are one of the biggest car segments of 2016...
They even nearly matched midsize cross overs/SUVs
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2017/01/usa-midsize-car-sales-stats-december-2016-year-end/
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2017/01/usa-compact-car-sales-stats-december-2016-year-end/
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awmaster10
> TheHondaBro
10/23/2017 at 13:22 |
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FCA seems to only make interesting cars for small strange niches. ~200mph grand cherokee, factory challenger that will wreck built drag cars, solid axle convertible SUV, etc. but anything a normal family would buy? TRASH.
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LJ909
> awmaster10
10/23/2017 at 13:23 |
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Good point about the Vette. On top of that, the Viper has always been brutal and rather harsh. The addition of the Hemi I think would have to have it become more refined and probably turn it into more of a GT than the outright track monster it is.
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Sweet Trav
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:23 |
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It wont fit the hood line, that’s why they never put the Hemi in there.
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Sweet Trav
> Discerning
10/23/2017 at 13:24 |
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They are however losing more share than any other class of car to SUVs
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Sweet Trav
> TheHondaBro
10/23/2017 at 13:25 |
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Also as far as fullsized sedans go, the Charger is the best selling one.
Chariotoflove
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:27 |
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How much the cost of the Viper is in that engine? Whereas demonizing a production model coupe or sedan means upgrading the engine and some other stuff, the Viper is hand-built, no? Would the cost of the car as a whole really go down that much? This is an honest question because I have no numbers to judge.
feather-throttle-not-hair
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:28 |
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I would’ve liked to have seen the viper become more of a balanced sports car instead of what it is (which is in my book, kind of a muscle car version of a supercar.)
Its cool and i’m glad it exists, but i’d never really consider owning one, its just too....much. If it had toned down styling, a 475 hp v8 and a 60K price point, it would be much more appealing to me.
As a random side note, i’m pretty sure you can now stick the hellcat engine into the viper in Forza 7.
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awmaster10
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:28 |
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Yeah they were definitely trying to maintain the brutality of the viper, but as a business decision it wouldnt have hurt to taint the reputation a little to get in on the sub 70k sports car market. I know the c7 base is a great great car especially for the price, but if I could have a v8 viper for the same price with moderately worse performance, id be on board.
marshknute
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:30 |
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The Viper’s engine bay is long, but not very tall. Size limitations are 100% the reason why the viper never got a Hemi. Pushrod engines are smaller than DOHC’s (which is why GM LS engines are the cliche engine-swap motor), and the Hemi V8 is approximately the size of Mount Rushmore.
The V10 was actually a pretty fantastic engine, even if it was a bit of a dinosaur. The massive displacement and simple pushrod design made it very understressed and therefore supremely durable and reliable (again, same advantages as LS engines)
But if FCA had a reliable/small V8, they absolutely would have put it in the Viper. It’s a shame they didn’t, because the Viper’s V10 always sounded pretty lousy.
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LJ909
> PotbellyJoe and 42 others
10/23/2017 at 13:31 |
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Yea I always thought the Firepower and the dear to my heart ME Four-Twelve were huge balls that were dropped. Both were damn near production ready. But I think the way the economy was both of those cars wouldnt have made sense or found many buyers at the time.
The Firepower was more mainstream of the 2 and was kind of Chrysler’s XLR to Dodges Corvette if you get my meaning. Honestly right now, Chrysler could really use a product like this.
jimz
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:33 |
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it wouldn’t fit.
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LJ909
> Chariotoflove
10/23/2017 at 13:34 |
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I dont think much of the cost of the Viper is in the engine at this point. The Viper’s V10 is pretty much the same Ram sourced V10 its always been since early 90's its just been bored out to the current 8.1.
I think most of the cost of the car comes from its hand built nature. Id assume that with the mass production of the Hemis that that would have to drive the cost down some? Maybe? I could be wrong
Future next gen S2000 owner
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:37 |
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The hand built nature kept the prices high. Even if you engineered the car from the get go to accept a v8, everything would essentially take the same time to build. Gotta go mass production like the Vette if you want to bring the costs down.
MrH42
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:37 |
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The Hellcat engine can’t fit in a Viper. It’s too tall.
As to why they couldn’t put a NA hemi in it:
The whole car was built around that V10. Trying to fit the 6.1 liter Hemi into it would be a lot of work. Also, it’s not the variable cost of the engine that drives the price. There would be little to no savings to switching to the Hemi.
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LJ909
> feather-throttle-not-hair
10/23/2017 at 13:37 |
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I would’ve liked to have seen the viper become more of a balanced sports car instead of what it is (which is in my book, kind of a muscle car version of a supercar.)
Its cool and i’m glad it exists, but i’d never really consider owning one, its just too....much. If it had toned down styling, a 475 hp v8 and a 60K price point, it would be much more appealing to me.
This. The Viper pretty much is exactly how you described it: an American interpretation of a Supercar. Brutal, harsh,rough, insane. I dont think I would ever own one either from reading how difficult it is to drive. I just always thought that they should have and could have reached more buyers had it not been just that one brutal version. Something with a base V8, like you mentioned at 475 and about 60 grand could have worked. Or Chrysler could have given us a version like someone else mentioned in the Firepower concept.
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LJ909
> awmaster10
10/23/2017 at 13:38 |
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Definitely. I think they could have won over a ton of Corvette buyers had they done this. As it is the Viper has only appealed to a certain type of buyer. Now we will never know, especially with no talks of another generation.
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awmaster10
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:40 |
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Seems like all their performance effort is going to go into making their regular cars crazy fast now. BUT the new challenger and charger will ride on the giulia platform, so that is extremely extremely exciting. A downsized scatpack charger on a 100x better chassis will be a very compelling option now that the SS is gone.
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LJ909
> marshknute
10/23/2017 at 13:41 |
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Yea it looks low as hell and I have always heard and read that the Hemi was tall. I didnt realize how tall it was though.
The V10 is fantastic though and I dont think we will ever see anything like it again from an American automaker. It could easily be tuned to put out over 1,000 horses as well. Didnt know it was that reliable though.
I think a sub 5 liter V8 would have worked in the Viper or some other FCA sports car, but the Hemi is their go to for the time being. And the you’re right, V10 has always sounded like garbage. Its not like an American muscle burble, its...weird.
Milky
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:42 |
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The engine hasn’t been that small since 2003.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viper_engine
Will probably never, ever be able to type that again while referring to an engine over 8 liters.
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feather-throttle-not-hair
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:43 |
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Yeah, its been described as not just difficult to drive but difficult to drive in a way that isn’t particularly fun or rewarding. Tons of grip until it doesn’t.
I guess some of the last ones were a little more progressive on the limit
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PotbellyJoe and 42 others
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:43 |
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Sure, but the initial pricing targets for the Firepower were right in the Vette’s wheelhouse. It would have been a grand tourer of a car aimed squarely at what the Vette was moving away from and what the Viper was never allowed to be.
If a Halo car is supposed to showcase what your brand can do, it’s best if the Halo car has some tie-in with your line-up.
The strength of the new Ford GT is to show how far ecoboost can be pushed, from a marketing perspective. If there were a Firepower, it would be to show tech, like the Hemi with MDS could be in a platform built for performance. 460-hp but getting 27 mpg HWY, or something crazy like that.
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LJ909
> jimz
10/23/2017 at 13:45 |
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Exactly the answer I was looking for. Thanks.
My bird IS the word
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:46 |
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Viper should have been held off a bit in my opinion. The chassis was good but I don’t think the powerplant was quite ready for prime time. unfortunately, supercar sales are not always about actual performance, but about numbers.
I will agree with what others have said, I don’t think dodge left any room in the engine bay for turbos or superchargers, which they probably should have.
the older 2nd gen viper gts was much more competitive.
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LJ909
> Future next gen S2000 owner
10/23/2017 at 13:48 |
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True. And the sales have never been there for it to be mass production. But then that takes you back to question whether or not a base V8 model would have brought in those sales to make it mass production.
punkgoose17
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:49 |
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The Hellcat engine didn’t fit into the Viper according to the engineers the engine is too tall.
The should have put the Maserati 3.8L twin turbo v8 in it, new interior, body work, and suspension tuning for a new Maserati with a shared production line and improved build quality.
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LJ909
> Milky
10/23/2017 at 13:50 |
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Yea my bad its 8.4 now.
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LJ909
> feather-throttle-not-hair
10/23/2017 at 13:51 |
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Yea Ive read some drives have described it as almost having to fight with the car. I dont wanna be tired after driving a car Im trying to enjoy. I also dont want it to kill me. The Viper has always seemed like it would or could easily kill someone in the wrong hands. The current gen, not so much, but I’m sure it still can.
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LJ909
> punkgoose17
10/23/2017 at 13:54 |
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Improved build quality maybe, along with making it even pricier,but at the same time downgrading its reliability. Someone mentioned how reliable the V10 was. Swapping that for a Maserati V8 along with a Maserati trans would have saw expensive repairs.
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Chariotoflove
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 13:57 |
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Honestly don’t know either, but it makes sense to at least some extent. I had always thought that the Viper’s low volume was the major contributor to it’s high unit cost.
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Future next gen S2000 owner
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 14:04 |
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Is part of the allure being a hand built car?
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LJ909
> Future next gen S2000 owner
10/23/2017 at 14:14 |
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I think so. The fact that its both handbuilt and from a major manufacturer is alluring to me. To top it off its hand built and American with actually quality, something that small firms like Saleen cant match.
Wobbles the Mind
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 14:23 |
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Well back when SRT was a standalone brand they were working on a supercharger for the V10 that could reach 900 hp. I had thrown out that apparently the powertrain was completed just as the brand and car were axed. It was supposed to have gone on sale through the Viper Exchange but everything has disappeared.
I mentioned this engine back when we didn’t know anything about the Demon.
http://oppositelock.kinja.com/challenger-srt-demon-may-have-that-supercharged-8-4l-vi-1791409024
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marshknute
> LJ909
10/23/2017 at 14:29 |
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Like most American pushrod engines, the Viper’s V10 was hilariously overdesigned for the stock horsepower/torque numbers. You could turbocharge it to hell and back, run it hard for 24 hours, and it still wouldn’t miss a beat (or as Hennessey found, it would munch through several transmissions per day)
As for the crappy exhaust note, it was one of the only V10's to feature an odd firing order, which made it sound like two dull loping inline-5's.
I still find it remarkable that ancient pushrods engines have remained relevant for this long. For all their decades of development, European DOHC’s have failed to surpass the small size, low weight, power and reliability of an American pushrod engine.
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LJ909
> Wobbles the Mind
10/23/2017 at 14:39 |
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Thanks for this. I didnt know anything about any of this and I tend to try to stay on top of Mopar news. 900 horses would have been crazy but would have made the Viper just that much more difficult to drive.
StndIbnz, Drives a MSRT8
> punkgoose17
10/24/2017 at 08:48 |
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Too wide actually. The HEMI doesn’t fit in the frame side to side.